If you’ve read my blog with any regularity, you know I’m a fan of Burning Wheel. I love the character-driven fiction it encourages and supports: the lifepath system generates characters with a coherent history before play, and the Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits (BITs) really drive the game forward. They also make it a cinch to GM, at least in terms of making the story relevant to what the players want. I also love the idea of the organic character growth and development that comes out of play – the skills you use improve, the ones you don’t stagnate, and your experiences change your character in long-lasting ways via BITs.
Unfortunately, I’m not really a fan of nitty-gritty BW rules since I find them really cumbersome in play, particularly with a larger group. The fundamental mechanics and rules are just fine – it’s all the added systems (in BW parlance, the spokes) that don’t really work for me. In particular, my major issues with BW are:
The Fight! mechanics are very fiddly, crunch heavy, incredibly difficult to learn, and become very hard to manage if you enter in to a mass melee. The bloody versus alternative, on the other hand, feels pretty random and anti-climactic. A year after playing BW regularly, I still find myself overwhelmed trying to use the Fight! mechanics. I’ll be honest, as much as I love the idea of the Fight! system and how “real” it feels (life and death are on the line), it makes my head hurt thinking about it. It’s also been very difficult to teach to my players – the sheer number of scripting options, the way they interact, and the number of fine, if-then type rules (e.g., you can’t script two attacks in a row, a great strike requires you to script a “set” first) are pretty overwhelming.- Traits are way too complicated and poor organized: They’re spread out all over the Character Burner with many having very specific effects/uses, while others are simply descriptive and thus poorly defined in what they do for you. I think Luke Crane got it right with the way the Mouse Guard RPG uses Traits – they have a common, easily usable effect and function a bit like Aspects in FATE.
- The Artha system is awesome and at the same time requires way too much bookkeeping and regular review to use effectively – Trait votes, etc. all suck up a lot of time. The same applies to the advancement system (which I’ve already said I love) – the “routine/difficult/challenging ratings which are tracked for individual skills is a lot of bookkeeping. These problems are something that with only a couple PCs don’t pose a lot of difficult, but I’ve found hard with 4+ players.
- The system is incredibly flexible for doing various settings and ideas, but it’s also really labor-intensive to port to a non-traditional fantasy setting. Creating lifepaths is a massive job, one which has almost no payoff once you move beyond the character burning session. Creating new races is even harder if you want them to be anything but a re-skinned version of one of the races outlined in the rulebooks. Similarly, you can’t add a new skill without figuring out all the lifepaths where that skill should be available.
- The whole nature of skills, obstacles (Obs), and FoRKs is awkward in my opinion. For example, you have a very limited range of Obs that a PC with a ‘normal” rating in a particular skill has a decent shot of succeeding at – with an Ob 3, a character with a B5 only has a 50/50 chance of success. While failure (especially in BW) is cool, it’s not really fun for most players to fail half the time. In addition, the lobbying for FoRKs (which is essential to have a decent shot at success) is something my players haven’t really gotten used to nor do any of use particularly like to do it. It feels like a lot of extra work, the result of which often a desperate attempt to give your character a chance to succeed – after which he fails half the time anyways. I’m not saying the system is broken in any way (it actually works really well in principle), but rather the type of playstyle is requires is something that doesn’t work for my group.
I think I’ll stop there since it sounds like I’m saying that “I hate Burning Wheel’s mechanics” which isn’t true. I think with the right group and a concerted effort to master the rules, the game is so full of awesome it’s painful to think about. Combat is absolutely electric and borders on LARP if everyone knows what they’re doing. Characters grow in amazing ways and often feel like they’re walking on the razor’s edge, whether they’re fighting an orc chieftain or arguing their case before the king’s Regent. In all fairness, the rules mastery that BW demands isn’t much different than the last couple editions of D&D or other “crunchy” games. The learning curve with BW, however, is much steeper.
I really would need to write a full review to put my complaints into the proper context, something which I don’t have the time to do at the moment. Instead, what I’m really driving at is that while much of the philosophy behind BW works well with my group (they love it), the actual mechanics don’t work very well at all for what we want from a game. It’s a reflection on how the game’s rules have interacted with our playstyle and group.
Much of the difficulty I’ve experienced running BW has to do with the nature of the group: Only one of the players is a native English speaker. While the others all are fluent (some remarkably so), the nuanced language of Burning Wheel which is an inherent part of the game from cover to cover (i.e., skill system, FoRKs, stake setting, actions in Fight! & DoW) are way too difficult for them to parse and use in a meaningful way. I think most native English speakers would find a lot of the esoteric language pretty hard to decipher.
For example, Falsehood is the skill you use to lie, Soothing Platitudes is the skill used for brown-nosing and groveling… you use the Inconspicuous skill to blend in to a situation, while the Conspicuous skill is used to draw attention to yourself. Of course this is what I think they do because they’re not defined anywhere in the actual book but instead you have to infer what they are meant to be used for. You need a thesaurus and a dictionary to figure some of them out.
The fact that we only play 1-2 times per month also needs to be taken in to account. If we were to play weekly, I’m sure much of the difficulty we’ve had with learning the rules would disappear. However, with our current play schedule, what’s happened is that I have to remind everyone each session how to do certain things (especially ones that don’t come up all that frequently) which means everyone feels like their starting from zero each time.
Finally, the size of the group (4-5 players typically) also hasn’t helped because it means the complexity of the interaction between the various parts has gone way up: A combat sequence involving all of the characters, along with say a half dozen foes, is a huge undertaking as actions can easily interact with multiple other actions, creating something that is really hard to manage. The inclusion of a sorcerer in the group (Gator for those following the Beyond the Breach AP) has made things even more complicated because magic interacts with the Fight! mechanics in very unpredictable ways at times.
Therefore, we’re going to be switching systems once Beyond the Breach wraps up (I estimate we have 2-3 sessions left – my next AP post will explain why). However, I’m not walking entirely away from Burning Wheel – instead what I’m going to do is take what I love about it, and parts of a couple other game systems I really like (Silhouette & FATE) and create a new system that’s a hybrid. More on that later.
Prologue: What about Mouse Guard?
In many ways, I think Luke Crane got it right with the Mouse Guard RPG. Many of my criticisms about the finicky nature and archaic language of BW have been removed. Traits, no matter what they are, work in a very logical, story-driven, and uniform way. The skill list is well-defined. FoRKing is gone, replaced by the idea of bringing in a -wise skill to aid a roll. All very cool and a huge improvement.
Unfortunately Mouse Guard works awesome for what it’s designed for (team-based stuff) but doesn’t work very well with larger groups – I’ve found the sweet spot for MG is 3 players. While 4 or 5 works, the nature of how combat works is less rewarding and my ability to tailor the story to the individual PCs is much harder with more PCs. The nature of the combat system also doesn’t work well if you want a gritty, blow-by-blow, fight. When I tried the system with Beyond the Breach, the players found the “disposition running out” not very fulfilling when it came to feeling like their lives were on the line and that their individual actions mattered. The issue was that the nature of the characters and story didn’t encourage the group to act as a team – they all have individual motivations – and thus combat felt wrong.
The group’s playstyle, at least for the stories we’re interested in telling at the moment, wouldn’t work well with Mouse Guard. It’s not that we’re pure PvP; it’s that we’re all interested in playing complex, individual characters who aren’t necessarily each other’s best friends. In fact, this playstyle has caused problems in other of our games as well – our “super team” in another of our campaigns (the Balance of Power super-hero game I play in) is completely dysfunctional. Similarly, 4E has a been a bit of a challenge because while the combat rules require you to work as a team, the personalities of the characters are such that they don’t necessarily get along. As players we’re all on the same page, but when it comes to creating characters none of us really want to play in a game where “we’re all best friends and always work to help each other.” So Mouse Guard isn’t a good choice.
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Good post.
Burning Wheel pretty much requires players who are willing to learn the rules (in play or on their own time; either works). Handling the rules for others while playing is hard work.
Success is largely a matter of player will; assuming there is sufficient artha and the possibility of help, FoRKing, linked tests and working carefully, players can decide when they succeed. It does require system proficiency to pull all the disjoint bits together.
(Note: 6 dice versus obstacle 3 succeeds much more than half the time. It fails only on 22 out of 64 rolls, which is roughly 1/3. 5d and obstacle 3 succeeds only half the time.)
Tommi Brander´s last blog ..Levers and the fruitful void
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Thanks for the catch – I meant to type 5.
BTW – if anyone is interested, there’s a handy binomial stat calculator here: http://stattrek.com/Tables/Binomial.aspx
It’s really only useful for Black attributes in BW though (since successes on 4-6 on a d6 is the same thing as a coin toss).
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It works for white and gray attributes as well, since the calculator will allow any probability for success. For instance, a gray attribute will give you an individual probability of 2/3, or 0.66666667 in the calculator.
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That’s a good point: It didn’t even compute with me that it asks for the probability of success…. I just always typed in .5 without a second thought.
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[...] posted here: A reflection on my Burning Wheel games | Gaming Brouhaha Share and [...]
My biggest peeve with Burning Wheel is the very nature of scripted conflict resolution, and I’m amazed that nobody brings it up; people simply don’t plan and execute their movements three-at-a-time in real life combat. It’s bad enough that it requires a kind of guessing game as to what your opponent is going to select. But people simply don’t press on with their initial plans if step 1 doesn’t turn out right.
I was watching the Vikings and Saints in the playoffs today,and I was thinking about how quickly they were reacting to changes on the field, especially with how many fumbles the Vikings had. But offense has to turn into defense in a split-second, and it did. If it’s important to a football game, think how much more so it is to life-and-death combat.
The scripting system neither simulates real life (trust me), nor does it emulate heroic combat in the genre–it’s just a frustrating game-within-a-game that takes me completely out of the fantasy, and it’s the reason that Burning Wheel never took off for me or my group.
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people simply don’t press on with their initial plans if step 1 doesn’t turn out right.
That’s making the assumption that people can recognise, evaluate, and correct for complex manoeuvers that they’ve already set into motion in under a second, which is the time span of a “volley” takes in Burning Wheel. Most people can’t. (And there’s a Trait for those who can.)
I think of an entire exchange in Burning Wheel as the equivalent of one round in any other system. You get more actions per round, is all. When I look at it that way, it’s much like any other traditional combat system except that the actions for the round are chosen all at once and resolved as simultaneous actions. Next round (“exchange”), anyone still in the fight can react to the chaos of battle that just unfolded.
I’m not saying you’re wrong—scripting is a matter of taste and you saying you don’t like it is fair. When I had the same thoughts you express above about the strangeness of scripting, that’s how I sorted it out for myself.
d7´s last blog ..Pick a lever, any lever
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I’ve yet to run BW for more than one player, though it looks like I’ll get the chance in March.
One of the things I want to do is introduce the Spokes very, very slowly. I’ve heard of groups not introducing the Fight! rules until they had been playing for more than a year. I can believe that, but I think I’d find myself winging it and adding more situational complexity to the Bloody Versus to make it work for a more party-style fight.
And when I started to think about that, I serendipitously heard about some old mid-range fight mechanics that Luke Crane had put up as a PDF on the BW site a few years ago. They’re not there anymore, but I found them in the Wayback Machine: Burning Wheel Gangwar Mook Mechanics.
I’m not going to use them directly (I’m with you on avoiding deluging my players with too many options), but I’ll use them as a reference and inspiration as I make situational rulings on more complex combats without going to the full Fight! rules.
If you’re going to be synthesising a hybrid system, you might find those in-the-middle complexity rules interesting.
Thanks for the musings. As I’m heading toward running BW for a group, these are good things for me to keep in mind!
d7´s last blog ..Pick a lever, any lever
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I nodded along as I read that article. The only difference is that I’ve tried it a few times — ran seven sessions via skype, tried two or three sessions of Mouse Guard, played a session of Blossoms Are Falling — and I’ve decided that I’ll be looking at other systems for now.
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I’ve had nothing but awesome experiences with Mouse Guard – it’s one of the best written and most playable RPGs I own. It, however, isn’t really a “universal” system and tells very different stories IMO than Burning Wheel. I also have had great experiences with Burning Wheel but having now run several different games of it, I don’t think it’s the mechanical system but rather the philosophy that envelopes the BW approach (i.e., games about characters and campaigns built around the group’s desires). As a result, I’m taking away an enormous amount from my BW games and the hybrid system I’m putting together incorporates a lot of BW ideas in to it. For example, all of the players universally agreed that they wanted to track advancement using Pass/Fail rather than using any form of XPs or point-buy. Similarly, they all want BITs to be part of the game.
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